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	<title>Comments on: The American Land Question</title>
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		<title>By: Thomas Gillooly</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-american-land-question/comment-page-1/#comment-17403</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Gillooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=9683#comment-17403</guid>
		<description>Dan Sullivan’s history lesson proposes answers to several questions, but not to the question under discussion, the question which I addressed.  That question was not about the origin of feudalism, not about the system(s) that feudalism replaced, not whether feudalism was the first system to impose a tax on land.  The question, which Dan Sullivan does not address, was, are there any significant similarities between feudalism and a land tax regime?  David Spellman said they are similar, Harold Kyriasi said they are not, and I noted one specific respect in which they are in fact very similar, i.e., that in both systems one holds land only with permission of the state, normally on condition of making payments to the state for as one holds it.  It is a central feature of both systems that the state can seize land from anyone who fails to pay.  And another similarity is that each system is supported by an ideology designed to convince the masses that it is right and good that the state have this power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan Sullivan’s history lesson proposes answers to several questions, but not to the question under discussion, the question which I addressed.  That question was not about the origin of feudalism, not about the system(s) that feudalism replaced, not whether feudalism was the first system to impose a tax on land.  The question, which Dan Sullivan does not address, was, are there any significant similarities between feudalism and a land tax regime?  David Spellman said they are similar, Harold Kyriasi said they are not, and I noted one specific respect in which they are in fact very similar, i.e., that in both systems one holds land only with permission of the state, normally on condition of making payments to the state for as one holds it.  It is a central feature of both systems that the state can seize land from anyone who fails to pay.  And another similarity is that each system is supported by an ideology designed to convince the masses that it is right and good that the state have this power.</p>
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		<title>By: William Green</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-american-land-question/comment-page-1/#comment-16415</link>
		<dc:creator>William Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=9683#comment-16415</guid>
		<description>This article has me thinking about the relationship between freedom and independence vs. interdependence.  Are the ideals of the division of labor and social cooperation at odds with freedom?  Does the individual in the interdepency of the free market, or the individual specializing within the division of labor sacrifice his or her freedom?  Am I not free when I voluntarily work for another, when I buy my oil from another?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article has me thinking about the relationship between freedom and independence vs. interdependence.  Are the ideals of the division of labor and social cooperation at odds with freedom?  Does the individual in the interdepency of the free market, or the individual specializing within the division of labor sacrifice his or her freedom?  Am I not free when I voluntarily work for another, when I buy my oil from another?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-american-land-question/comment-page-1/#comment-16314</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=9683#comment-16314</guid>
		<description>Tom Gillooly is confused about history. Far from eliminating private property in land, feudalism created it.

Common rights to land (which are very different from state ownership) began under common law. It was considered reasonable that those who held the best land were expected to render the greatest service to the rest of the community by maintaining roads, providing for defense, etc. These were direct services and were physically taxing, which is what the word \&quot;tax\&quot; comes from. (The term \&quot;freeholder\&quot; did not mean free of obligation any more than a \&quot;free market\&quot; is a place where you take things without paying for them.)

Because common law societies had no centralized government, these early obligations were undertaken to earn the goodwill of the community. With the rise of government, they were imposed from above, which is why taxes were later called \&quot;imposts.\&quot; The tax collector, or \&quot;post man,\&quot; would often carry messages or merchandise from one land holder to another. When this was regulated, government first went into what we now call the postal business.

The economies of these societies gradually evolved from barter systems to monetary systems, and, for a while, only the holders of the most (or best) lands were obligated to pay imposts. As landlords grew more arrogant, they demanded rent, imposts, taxes or mail (for all these words came to mean the same thing) from even the poorest landholders. If a landholder could not pay in silver, the post man would take whatever he deemed to be of comparable value. Payment in silver was called \&quot;white mail,\&quot; and payment in confiscated goods was called \&quot;black mail.\&quot; 

Such is the financial evolution from common law to feudalism. The political evolution parallels this. 

Under common law, disputes that did not warrant juries were taken to people known for their wisdom or greatness in that particular area. The word \&quot;lord\&quot; meant \&quot;great person.\&quot; \&quot;Lords\&quot; were analogous to American Indian chiefs. Hence, one would consult a war lord about a pending inter-tribal battle or Viking raid. 

Land lords were consulted to settle land disputes, based on the principle of a common right to access land. Most disputes were around someone taking more land than he was using, or around taking so much that there was not enough and as good left for others. (Locke\&#039;s writings on property from his \&quot;Second Treatise\&quot; reflected ancient common-law principles.)

The lords, who were first chosen by tribal recognition, with neither hereditary rights nor even life tenures, gradually entrenched themselves and, as they did so, usurped common rights to land and gradually converted it to state land and then to their own land, mostly through a series of enclosure acts. Thus, private property in land began with the usurpation by state-appointed land lords. The earliest known use of the term \&quot;landowner\&quot; is from the 1500s.

Lords let others use land under their control in exchange for rent. The word \&quot;rent\&quot; is seldom used in its original sense, except in the bible where. for example, Jesus\&#039;s executioners \&quot;rent\&quot; his garments. Yes, the original meaning of \&quot;rent\&quot; is \&quot;rip-off.\&quot; Early rents went to pay for community services that had originally been borne by the freeholders doing the taxing work directly. 
The lords evolved into a titled aristocracy, such that the title \&quot;Lord of Sussex\&quot; carried with it the lands of Sussex, etc. That is where the term \&quot;land title\&quot; originated.

Early lords had been responsible for organizing the defense of the territories over which they presided, and larger territories were easier to protect than smaller ones. They had therefore been prohibited from dividing their territories, but had to pass them intact to the eldest male, which is where primogeniture came from.

However, as they socialized the responsibilities of lordship and privatized the benefits, other government bureaucracies took over the obligations of defense. This left the lords free to sell their titles and even subdivide the land into parcels. Thus the person buying a land title, at least in Europe, is literally purchasing the economic benefits of a piece of lordship, with none of the responsibilities beyond what is levied in the portion of real estate taxes that fall on land. (The term \&quot;real estate\&quot; is French for \&quot;royal state.\&quot;)

In any case, the transition from common rights to land under common law into state and then private property under feudalism, is captured by the following English folk-verse.

They hang the man and flog the woman
Who steal the goose from off the common,
But let the greater robber loose
Who stole the common from the goose.

Dan Sullivan, director
Saving Communities</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Gillooly is confused about history. Far from eliminating private property in land, feudalism created it.</p>
<p>Common rights to land (which are very different from state ownership) began under common law. It was considered reasonable that those who held the best land were expected to render the greatest service to the rest of the community by maintaining roads, providing for defense, etc. These were direct services and were physically taxing, which is what the word \&quot;tax\&quot; comes from. (The term \&quot;freeholder\&quot; did not mean free of obligation any more than a \&quot;free market\&quot; is a place where you take things without paying for them.)</p>
<p>Because common law societies had no centralized government, these early obligations were undertaken to earn the goodwill of the community. With the rise of government, they were imposed from above, which is why taxes were later called \&quot;imposts.\&quot; The tax collector, or \&quot;post man,\&quot; would often carry messages or merchandise from one land holder to another. When this was regulated, government first went into what we now call the postal business.</p>
<p>The economies of these societies gradually evolved from barter systems to monetary systems, and, for a while, only the holders of the most (or best) lands were obligated to pay imposts. As landlords grew more arrogant, they demanded rent, imposts, taxes or mail (for all these words came to mean the same thing) from even the poorest landholders. If a landholder could not pay in silver, the post man would take whatever he deemed to be of comparable value. Payment in silver was called \&quot;white mail,\&quot; and payment in confiscated goods was called \&quot;black mail.\&quot; </p>
<p>Such is the financial evolution from common law to feudalism. The political evolution parallels this. </p>
<p>Under common law, disputes that did not warrant juries were taken to people known for their wisdom or greatness in that particular area. The word \&quot;lord\&quot; meant \&quot;great person.\&quot; \&quot;Lords\&quot; were analogous to American Indian chiefs. Hence, one would consult a war lord about a pending inter-tribal battle or Viking raid. </p>
<p>Land lords were consulted to settle land disputes, based on the principle of a common right to access land. Most disputes were around someone taking more land than he was using, or around taking so much that there was not enough and as good left for others. (Locke\&#8217;s writings on property from his \&quot;Second Treatise\&quot; reflected ancient common-law principles.)</p>
<p>The lords, who were first chosen by tribal recognition, with neither hereditary rights nor even life tenures, gradually entrenched themselves and, as they did so, usurped common rights to land and gradually converted it to state land and then to their own land, mostly through a series of enclosure acts. Thus, private property in land began with the usurpation by state-appointed land lords. The earliest known use of the term \&quot;landowner\&quot; is from the 1500s.</p>
<p>Lords let others use land under their control in exchange for rent. The word \&quot;rent\&quot; is seldom used in its original sense, except in the bible where. for example, Jesus\&#8217;s executioners \&quot;rent\&quot; his garments. Yes, the original meaning of \&quot;rent\&quot; is \&quot;rip-off.\&quot; Early rents went to pay for community services that had originally been borne by the freeholders doing the taxing work directly.<br />
The lords evolved into a titled aristocracy, such that the title \&quot;Lord of Sussex\&quot; carried with it the lands of Sussex, etc. That is where the term \&quot;land title\&quot; originated.</p>
<p>Early lords had been responsible for organizing the defense of the territories over which they presided, and larger territories were easier to protect than smaller ones. They had therefore been prohibited from dividing their territories, but had to pass them intact to the eldest male, which is where primogeniture came from.</p>
<p>However, as they socialized the responsibilities of lordship and privatized the benefits, other government bureaucracies took over the obligations of defense. This left the lords free to sell their titles and even subdivide the land into parcels. Thus the person buying a land title, at least in Europe, is literally purchasing the economic benefits of a piece of lordship, with none of the responsibilities beyond what is levied in the portion of real estate taxes that fall on land. (The term \&quot;real estate\&quot; is French for \&quot;royal state.\&quot;)</p>
<p>In any case, the transition from common rights to land under common law into state and then private property under feudalism, is captured by the following English folk-verse.</p>
<p>They hang the man and flog the woman<br />
Who steal the goose from off the common,<br />
But let the greater robber loose<br />
Who stole the common from the goose.</p>
<p>Dan Sullivan, director<br />
Saving Communities</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Gillooly</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-american-land-question/comment-page-1/#comment-16196</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Gillooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=9683#comment-16196</guid>
		<description>Under feudalism, all land is owned by the state, personified by the king.  He allows others, his vassals, to use this land in exchange for payments of service or money (scutage).  Where there is a land tax, the landholder is called an owner, not a vassal, and the payment is called tax instead of scutage, but the bottom line is the same: Pay the state, or it will take your land from you.  And if government were supported entirely by a land tax, as some advocate, the condition of landowners would be very much like serfdom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under feudalism, all land is owned by the state, personified by the king.  He allows others, his vassals, to use this land in exchange for payments of service or money (scutage).  Where there is a land tax, the landholder is called an owner, not a vassal, and the payment is called tax instead of scutage, but the bottom line is the same: Pay the state, or it will take your land from you.  And if government were supported entirely by a land tax, as some advocate, the condition of landowners would be very much like serfdom.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold Kyriazi</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-american-land-question/comment-page-1/#comment-16166</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold Kyriazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=9683#comment-16166</guid>
		<description>An excellent and surprising article for the Freeman all around, both for its subject matter and for its erudition (if not lack of clear intent).  But I couldn&#039;t disagree more with commenter David Spellman, in that it is not property taxes, but wage and sales taxes that are most like the feudal rents, taking 25% of the serfs&#039; produce. Property taxes are miniscule by comparison.  His quote from Isaiah is apt, and those that hold land out of use, and out of reach of those landless people who&#039;d like to use the land to further their dreams, are behaving unethically in a system that permits such land hoarding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent and surprising article for the Freeman all around, both for its subject matter and for its erudition (if not lack of clear intent).  But I couldn&#8217;t disagree more with commenter David Spellman, in that it is not property taxes, but wage and sales taxes that are most like the feudal rents, taking 25% of the serfs&#8217; produce. Property taxes are miniscule by comparison.  His quote from Isaiah is apt, and those that hold land out of use, and out of reach of those landless people who&#8217;d like to use the land to further their dreams, are behaving unethically in a system that permits such land hoarding.</p>
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		<title>By: David Spellman</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-american-land-question/comment-page-1/#comment-15590</link>
		<dc:creator>David Spellman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=9683#comment-15590</guid>
		<description>This is a great article.  The difference between feudal lords charging rents to peasants and modern governments charging property taxes on citizens is nil.  The fight for freedom has always been about owning and controlling land.

As Isaiah 5:8 warns, God is against expropriators of the common man\&#039;s independent life on his own land:

¶ Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great article.  The difference between feudal lords charging rents to peasants and modern governments charging property taxes on citizens is nil.  The fight for freedom has always been about owning and controlling land.</p>
<p>As Isaiah 5:8 warns, God is against expropriators of the common man\&#8217;s independent life on his own land:</p>
<p>¶ Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!</p>
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