Illegal Aliens are not criminals “because they exist” any more than a burglars are criminals “because they exist.” Each of these criminal groups made a decision to break the law. One broke into your home the other broke into your country. Giving IA’s amnesty would be equivalent to the police arriving at your house and saying, “I’m sorry Mr. Curious, but he’s already raided your fridge and made himself comfortable on your couch so we’re going to let him stay.”

Property rights are a core principle of Libertarianism. What Ms. Akers, Ms. Rand, and others that support open boarders fail to recognize is that personal property rights are a function of national sovereignty. If national boarders are “arbitrary lines in the sand” then nations do not have the legal authority to grant title to land within these “arbitrary” boarders. This means the property lines on your lot are every bit as “arbitrary” as our nation’s boarders.

The legal authority that allows – The People – to seize land in the Revolutionary War that was previously owned by Great Britain or purchase land that was previously owned by France or Mexico or Russia, is the same legal authority that allows – The People – to divide this property into parcels and assign ownership. You cannot have private property without recognizing the State’s right to acquire said property in the first place. That means national sovereignty. No sovereignty = no property rights.

Our ownership exists because the US has the legal authority to grant title and the military strength to enforce these claims not because you paid a mortgage. The People took / bought the land. The People broke the land into parcels. A Developer eventually bought the parcel and built homes. You bought the home. If the initial claim of ownership by – The People – was illegal then they did not have the right to grant title and your purchase was illegal as well.

I do not have the right to enter your home without being invited regardless of if you leave the doors and windows open or not. The same is true for entering the US. Negative behavior must have negative consequences or the behavior will be repeated. In this case more than 20 million times.

Our laws make people who are here illegally into criminals because they exist. So, they are criminals due to their national origin. Hmmm, what other country made criminals of people because of their national origin? NAZI Germany comes to mind. This idea that a person can be a criminal because of who they are is an idea that the United States fought wars over to eliminate. We even fought each other over this issue.

For our country to allow large numbers of people to cross our borders illegally knowing that they will become criminals because of the fact that they exist, that is just immoral. We have an obligation to secure our borders and then to give the illegals who are already here some sort of legal status so that they can have basic human rights defended by our rule of law. To continue to allow tens of millions of people to live with no human rights because of who they are and to continue to allow millions more to enter our country is obscene.

I am 100% in support of building the equivalent of Hadrian’s wall on the southern border and stationing 300,000 military troops along the wall to secure the border.

Hadrian’s wall had two purposes. First, was to eliminate illegal traffic, including armed incursion, across the border. Second, was to facilitate legal traffic across the border.

Hadrian’s wall had gates and facilities every few miles. Anyone who had legal business would find anything they needed to help them in their travels.

That is the kind of wall I would support. A gate every mile with customs and immigration officers present to assist anyone who had a legal and legitimate purpose to travel across the border. Modern facilities located at each of these points.

The wall to be augmented with motion detectors, infrared detection, sound detectors, radar, cameras, and anything else needed to detect unauthorized intrusion.

The 300,000 troops to be well trained in community service and community outreach so that they are a positive force in the areas.

A wall like this would put an end to illegal crossings of our border while facilitating and encouraging legal crossings.

On the private property issue, this is an overwhelming national security issue. I’m sorry but national security trumps private property in this case.

On the “environmental” issue, the illegals are doing far more damage to the environment than building a wall would. Anyone who is saying I am wrong on this has not been to the border area and seen the huge mountains of trash that the illegals leave. Also, there is an enormous environmental cost in terms of the damage being done to hundreds of thousands of human beings who are at the mercy of the criminals who control the smuggling trails. Not to mention the damage being done by the free flow of drugs across the border. We know how to build walls and minimize environmental impact. The “environmentalists” conveniently overlook the enormous environmental damage being done to human beings because of this free for all situation on the border.

For those who will now call me a racist. Race has nothing to do with it. Protecting our country from illegal activity is an obligation that we have. I am 100% for LEGAL immigration, my family came to America in 1848.

Now, if your argument is that our legal immigration is too restrictive, I would probably agree. So, work with your Senator and Representatives to get the laws changed.

Yet again you show the disingenuous nature of your side of the debate by lumping illegal aliens in with immigrants.

If you want to be taken seriously you need to present a rational argument and enter into a discussion rather than screaming “RACISTS! XENOPHOBES! NATIVISTS!” and pretending like this addresses the point. This is especially true when you post something as racially motivated as the following:

\"Immigrant Mexicans are the only people I will hire…\"

Next time you want to throw around the word “racist,” you should remember these words and look in the mirror.

We are a country of laws. You may not like these laws. There are some I don’t like either, that doesn’t mean I get to break them. I think I should be able to drive 100 MPH but the law says I can’t so occasionally I get speeding tickets. Oh no! The police are infringing on my civil liberties! Wake up people! We are living in a police state where we actually regulate our highways (just like every developed nation on the planet) as well as our boarders (just like every developed nation on the planet)! Sorry Rob, the histrionics are getting old.

You like illegals because you can pay them $12.00 an hour under the table and pretend like you are striking a blow for freedom. You cannot get US workers because no one is going to do back breaking labor for $12.00 an hour. Even if they did you would have to pay taxes as well as match their contribution to Social Security. This saves you thousands of dollars every year. You are taking over where your ancestors left off except the slaves are brown instead of black and you pay them slave wages rather than keeping them in a stable. If they complain about the conditions or pay you fire them and hire a new batch because the old one got “infected by lazy Americans” when the truth is they just got tired of being exploited. How many members of the United Farm Workers do you employ? Do you allow them to take off on Cesar Chavez day or is that one of the many holidays you fail to celebrate? Then you turn around and congratulate yourself on helping these poor unfortunates as well as striking a blow against tax tyranny. The savings are just a strange coincidence, right Rob?

Now on my side of this I have friends from Europe that want to immigrate here. One friend, Tasos, is from Greece. He has a Masters in Chemistry and holds three patents on chemicals currently used in the Stealth program. He has been patiently waiting in line since 1986, coincidentally that is the same year Simpson-Mazzoli passed which I naively voted for. Why? Because Uncle Ronny promised me that if we gave amnesty to the 8 million illegals already here he would regulate the boarders and make people wait their turn just like my family did. He lied to me and I am really getting sick of deceit being the status quo in Washington. When Washington fulfills the promises outlined in Simpson-Mazzoli, we can talk about McCain-Kennedy. Until then it is a non starter. Race be damned. Hate be damned.

I’m one of the descendants of the Irish immigrants you mention. When my ancestors came here most of them did it according to the laws of this nation, we only came here while Ireland was suffering from famine, the total number of Irish that came here was approximately 3 million, the flood stopped when the famine passed, and many went back.

Meanwhile PEW indicates 70% of illegal aliens come from Latin America, 56% from Mexico alone. This has been going on for more than three decades and it increases every year rather than decreasing regardless of how prosperous Mexico gets. Mexico is not using the US as a temporary place to store citizens while it recovers from a disaster, it is sending people here wholesale without any desire to curtail this practice. Even using the most conservative (i.e., smallest) numbers at least 12 million illegal aliens are currently in residence in addition to 8 million naturalized overnight by Simpson-Mazzoli. That means at least 20 million people that got here by breaking the law. This is not even remotely similar to any of the previous immigration booms, Italian, Irish, or Chinese if for no other reason than these new immigrants – are – not – following – the – rules.

Do you know what you call 20 million people illegally crossing your boarder in violation of your national sovereignty? An invasion. When Germany did this to Poland it started World War II. I guess the Poles were xenophobes? What were they thinking protecting their nation? They were all obviously Racists and Nativists with an over developed sense of nationalism Just think, if the rest of the world shared your insight and that of Ms. Akers millions would still be alive today that died defending these “arbitrary lines in the sand.” So what if the NAZI’s took over?

As you point out my ancestors were indeed imm immigrants. My great aunts came here as indentured servants. Essentially this was white slavery because even though the “servant” had the option to buy their contract it was set up in a way that this was nearly impossible. One of the sisters ended up marrying a wealthy American businessman that bought both of their contracts and freed them. Several years later they sponsored my great-grandfather to come here from Scotland. Notice the word “sponsored.”

When Pop came here you had to have a job lined up as well as someone that would take responsibility for you and swear you were a productive citizen. He spent the next decade plus working in the Chicago coal mines and eventually died of black lung in 1973. My great-grandfather served this nation in WWI. My grandfather served this nation in WWII (his ship had 5 battle stars). My father served on the USS Midway which has been decommissioned and is a Navy Museum in San Diego.

Now explain to me in words as clear as the human mind can form why my family had to jump through every hoop in the book to come here and some guy can walk across the boarder breaking our laws and violating our sovereignty – sovereignty my family lost and spilled blood to protect – and expect the same rights and privileges my family earned over four generations?

The American Dream has a price and part of that is waiting your turn. I do not care what color your skin is we have laws. Get in line. There are Asians, Africans, Europeans, as well as Latinos that have been waiting years, if not decades, to come here and rewarding a dishonest group that have slipped past our boarders under cover of night while others are kept out by something as noble as their honor and ethics is entirely indefensible.

Supporting those that break the law is Anarchy, not Liberty. Not tolerating crime is not xenophobia, racism, or nativism. It is common sense.

Stop crying about lost jobs to Mexicans. Immigrant Mexicans are the only people I will hire today and for the past 30 years, because they are the only ones that are willing to put in a days work. I can’t get a white kid to work anywhere near as well as an illegal. So I pay them what I would pay any American in cash under the table. Starting wage, $12.00 per hour, tax free! God bless them. They know the value of the dollar unlike US people do. They are trustworthy as maids and nannies. They will even arrive for work on official holidays- imagine?! I even give them keys to my home so that if I am at my home abroad, they can continue to enter and clean, use the bathrooms, even spend the night should it be necessary because of Border Patrol Nazi’s and the Homeland Department of Stupidity. This is the American way!

Everyone here was once an immigrant unless you are a native American. My family has been here since 1613 and we arrived and bettered ourselves by purchasing slaves and raising tobacco. We prospered for many generations, moving with the times and always bettering the prior generation. So much better than we did in old Europe. The American dream and melting pot. That’s all these people want to do, have a chance to better their lives. My head gardener’s children are all going to the University of Arizona now, one to become a doctor. This is the American dream!

Last century it was ‘No Irish or dogs on the lawn’, then segregation with whites only drinking fountains. Now it’s the Mexicans we deride and cast our aspersions upon. And heaven forbid, don’t forget the gays and their wanting to marry! Why is it that the people of this country founded in Liberty, just have to have someone to hate? Why can’t people go about their lives letting others alone causing no harm to others? Why do we need laws regulating what consenting adults read or do in the privacy of their own homes? Tell me, who is better than myself to decide what I can or cannot do as long as I do no wrong to someone else? Such Puritanism b…s…

The only thing this fence does is to challenge us more on how to safely bring others across. It won’t stop anyone from crossing who wants to, but I only worry that it may keep us in. Our freedoms erode daily in Congress and by illegal Presidential signings. Today the former Soviet satellite of Latvia is more free than the USA. Very scary. I think everyone is missing the bigger picture here, remember the Berlin Wall? That was built to keep immigrants out of Berlin but in reality it kept ‘free’ Berliners in. Remember the Berlin Airlift? Learn from history. With secret detainment camps being built in this country by subsidiaries of Halliburton, what is our future in this police state? Now a new ID we will have to carry? “Your papers please…”, remind you of anywhere?

I for one may soon relocate to sunny Mexico or Costa Rica with my family (and our ‘illegals’ who wish to come), so that perhaps we may live a life of freedom as it was envisioned by our Founding Fathers with few taxes, if any, and beautiful tax-free property. I only hold back to see if either New Hampshire or Hawaii succeeds from this Union as I would happily expand my holdings on Hawaii and relocate there.

Open your eyes people, this country has PLENTY of room for more people to live on and just because you made it in before the wall went up doesn’t give you the right to say, “Ha, ha, I got in but you brown people have to stay out now!” You’re nothing but phobic racists!

-A Native Arizonan

As of now I do not think the EPA has performed a comprehensive study of the effects but they have commented on various environmental impact studies such as the ones below:

http://www.epa.gov/region09/nepa/letters/prop-constr-ops-prop-tact-infra-sdiego-brdr-deis.pdf

http://www.texas.sierraclub.org/Conservation/lrgv_eis_epa_comments.pdf

To be fair to Ms. Akers environmentalist plea, I do not doubt that the impact will be significant however there are ways to mitigate this as long as we take reasonable precautions. We have highways and freeways running the length of the continent. I doubt this fence will prove to be any more disruptive than Route 66 or similar construction.

It seems odd to me that Ms. Akers is using a Green argument to overcome a basic Libertarian principle of property rights. Maybe she should be writing for a Green publication rather than a Libertarian one?

I printed out Dr. Binswanger\’s article. It is interesting from a philosophical point of view and I appreciate you directing me to it. I would comment on it but I want to spend more time examining his arguments. Since you went through the trouble of posting it I felt compelled to make sure you did not think I had ignored it.

I live in Santa Ana. If you are unfamiliar with this lovely city it is mostly Latino and the illegal alien population is around a third to on half of the population. Rather than being a paradise where hard working immigrants have built Nova Roma off the sweat of their noble brow, they have turned a perfectly good city into Tijuana north. The crime rate is astronomical, neighborhoods are slums, English is the exception, and the gang map looks like a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. I know the face of Nueva Unido Estados and it is a grim future where we join Latin America in abject poverty rather than rescuing them from themselves.

If the discussion did not make me happy I would not post. I am every bit as happy to debate against illegal immigration as I am to debate against a flat Earth because each time you offer empty rhetoric and I dispel it, the more likely someone is to read this and understand the failure of your side of the debate.

That is the whole purpose of debate and I welcome it with open arms. I believe in the Socratic method of learning. Unsupportable points of view need to die a Darwinian death leaving fact, logic, intellect, and science more visible by their passing. If I cannot support my stance then it should change. I just wish the opposition held the same belief.

In an effort to demonstrate how committed I am to locating the truth I even went so far as to provide a source that is hostile to my side of the debate rather than forcing you to provide one to counter a supportive source. If I were any more accommodating I would be arguing against myself.

If you wish to abandon the topic that is certainly understandable but do not do so under the disingenuous guise you are doing so for my benefit rather than your own. I understand your fear. I have seen it written on the faces of many Creationists when they realize the Bible might be incorrect as thus their core beliefs. Most run rather than admit their folly but a brave few accept that the secular is superior to the sectarian. Hopefully you can find this courage but I understand if you cannot.

With that said, limited resources in a nation and on the globe are not “fixed pie fallacies,” they are scientific and economic facts. The entire basis of the study of Economics is the understanding of Scarcity. If you want me to help you understand these concepts I would be happy to educate you but I fear your ignorance is intentional. You choose to believe there are infinite resources so you do not have to confront the uncomfortable reality that things need to change or they will get progressively worse as populations continues to explode.

I am quite familiar with the concept of protectionism. What you do not understand is that it is an economic tool not an obscenity. Protectionism is perfectly valid when two markets that are not at parity interact. If we use Mexico’s market as an example it is nowhere near parity and access to the market in Mexico is restricted geographically. As such the labor portion of the Mexican market is accessible in the US but the undervalued capital is not available to US citizens. In addition to this Mexico has various laws restricting certain portions of their market such as a law prohibiting non-citizens from owning land within 20 miles of the coast.

The exportation of labor is a unilateral interaction between the two markets. If the markets were truly interacting in an attempt to find equilibrium I could go down there and buy a couple hundred acres of beach property and build a couple thousand condos and homes for a fraction of what it would cost me in the US but Mexican businesses do not want to compete with US businesses any more than US workers want to compete with Mexican workers.

Why is it that the US does not have the same problems with Canada that it does with Mexico? Mexicans represent 56% of IA’s but the number of Canadian IA’s does not exceed 1%. Why? Canada has economic parity with the US. Their workers make a comparable wage. They have a similar standard of living. They have a similar technology base. Their birth rate is similar as well. For all wants and purposes Canada is a northern extension of the US with its own sovereignty.

So why is Mexico a rat hole? Too many people. Too little infrastructure. Notice that I did not mention resources. Mexico has vast resources but their government is corrupt and what little tax base they have gets siphoned off. Rather than lynching the dishonest politicians and building up their own infrastructure and market they run across the northern boarder.

We are not doing the nation of Mexico any favors by allowing the status quo to continue for entire generations. At some point they need to deal with their own domestic issues such as corruption, crime, over population, education, ad nauseam rather than expecting the US to keep turning a blind eye to their inadequacies and helping their citizens at the cost of our own. This is like an indulgent parent ignoring the disruption of a petulant child. At some point the kid has to be held accountable.

The current model consists of Mexican breeding an unending host overwhelming the limited infrastructure the crooked politicians begrudgingly build at a glacial pace and the US absorbing the rest. The problem is that the flood is overwhelming our infrastructure as well as that of Mexico so it needs to change or both our markets are going down the commode.

As much as I loath the moronic legislature in Sacramento I am far more annoyed with my idiotic congressmen and senators that are so eager to please their corporate and PAC masters that they refuse to see the disastrous economic reality of importing an unlimited and unending sea of poverty and ignorance.

I haven’t studied Ayn Rand, but what little I’ve read, I like. I can’t envision her support of any bureaucrat dictating where peaceful individuals can freely go and not go. In fact, I just found this article from the Ayn Rand Institute on open immigration: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4620

“Any restrictions on immigration–large or small–trample the rights of both employers and job-seeking immigrants. Opponents of immigration, want to repudiate the vision [of the “American Dream”] by turning it into a privileged preserve for those who want the law to set aside jobs for them–jobs they cannot freely earn through their own efforts.”

Indeed. Your arguments evoke imagery of the American Autoworker’s Union (which I presume you oppose since you are a James Madison Fan on the FEE board), except on a global scale. (“If ‘they’ want to buy a box of condoms rather than expecting us to absorb a sea of offspring spawned by their unquenchable libidinous urges…\" Come on…seriously?!) Like the dysfunctional Autoworkers Union, your “nationalistic union” is fear-based and entangled in the fixed pie fallacy.

And, since you’re tossing around basic economic terms, here are some for you to brush up on with regard to those tearful jobless teenagers with their noses pressed up forlornly against that McDonald’s window: “protectionist”, “cartel”.

My dear James Madison Fan. You are living in California and you are understandably enraged. You reside in a state grossly mismanaged by a dismal excuse for a legislature. You should be grabbing your pitchfork and executing your constitutional right to rise up and remove your government rather than succumbing to non-productive ethnic scapegoating. (History is chock full of all sorts of unsavory villains of this mindset. Surely you aspire to more noble societal contributions than blocking, repelling and taking away the opportunities of one human being in some perceived support of another. Leave that to the socialists.)

Guess what? While you were ranting about that \"condomless\" Mexican father toiling 12 hours a day in the hot sun picking fruit at below minimum wage taking some phantom treasures from you, your daughters and your grandchildren, your government is robbing you blind. If Mexicans were to blame for your state’s woeful economic plight, Texas would be in equal shambles.

Your moronic legislature has repeatedly trampled on the constitution with impunity and sold your misguided fellow residents a bill of goods. They are now getting a nice big heaping dose of what they voted for. Stop whining about the Mexicans, global overpopulation and other smokescreens. Your time would be far better spent figuring out how to get rid of the reckless idiots running your state into the ground than chasing \"criminals\" whose only offense is the same yearning for opportunity that somehow, by the grace of god or some ancestor\’s ingenuity, landed you here.

This has been fun, but I’m over this thread. Since it doesn\’t sound like this pursuit is making you very happy, and I wish you the best of luck in finding your higher cause.

\"Adios Muchacho\".