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	<title>Comments on: Self-Government</title>
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	<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/self-government-2/</link>
	<description>Ideas on Liberty</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:41:16 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ray Stephensson</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/self-government-2/comment-page-1/#comment-53572</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Stephensson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/uncategorized/self-government-2/#comment-53572</guid>
		<description>The premise of “democratic” self-governance with universal suffrage is based upon an incorrect assumption that “all men are created equal…” All men are in fact not created equal; therefore any subsequent assumptions based on this error must of necessity also be erroneous. Jefferson’s statement was never met to be interpreted in a literal scientific sense as it was a theocratic posture met to counter the British claim of the Devine Right of Kings.  

The concept of a governing elite (going back to Plato) transcends modern categories of “Left” and “Right” but is born of millenniums of experience demonstrating that there is an unfortunate category of people who left to their own devices  generally do a poorer job of governing themselves than if governed by an elite. The concept you put forward, that: “Each person is responsible only for himself, for his family, and for those whom he—of his own volition—chooses to care for,” is of course very seductive but is based upon the premise of the “responsible” citizen. Sadly such citizens in many areas of the country are few and far between. 

So yes, the people can govern themselves but without some ruling elite that governance has no focus, it is at best anarchist and at worst socially dysgenic in that the selfish and irresponsible will always outnumber their opposite kind. Either way such as society will bear no resemblance to what we have come to know as “civilization.” Libertarianism like true communism may be functional in small organic homogeneous communities--in the real world they are regretfully utopian. The former inevitably leading to anarchy, the latter (as is increasing the case in our country) leading to repression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The premise of “democratic” self-governance with universal suffrage is based upon an incorrect assumption that “all men are created equal…” All men are in fact not created equal; therefore any subsequent assumptions based on this error must of necessity also be erroneous. Jefferson’s statement was never met to be interpreted in a literal scientific sense as it was a theocratic posture met to counter the British claim of the Devine Right of Kings.  </p>
<p>The concept of a governing elite (going back to Plato) transcends modern categories of “Left” and “Right” but is born of millenniums of experience demonstrating that there is an unfortunate category of people who left to their own devices  generally do a poorer job of governing themselves than if governed by an elite. The concept you put forward, that: “Each person is responsible only for himself, for his family, and for those whom he—of his own volition—chooses to care for,” is of course very seductive but is based upon the premise of the “responsible” citizen. Sadly such citizens in many areas of the country are few and far between. </p>
<p>So yes, the people can govern themselves but without some ruling elite that governance has no focus, it is at best anarchist and at worst socially dysgenic in that the selfish and irresponsible will always outnumber their opposite kind. Either way such as society will bear no resemblance to what we have come to know as “civilization.” Libertarianism like true communism may be functional in small organic homogeneous communities&#8211;in the real world they are regretfully utopian. The former inevitably leading to anarchy, the latter (as is increasing the case in our country) leading to repression.</p>
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		<title>By: Stepho Martin-Houston</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/self-government-2/comment-page-1/#comment-41699</link>
		<dc:creator>Stepho Martin-Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/uncategorized/self-government-2/#comment-41699</guid>
		<description>I was looking for a discussion of Responsible Self Government and found this very much in keeping with what I had previously understood. It was a common colonial theme in the New World and the Antipodes which helped people trample over all manner of excellent social traditions as people pushed out of Europe into spaces to acquire no matter how scandalously. I think the Opium Wars were a fine example of this same logic, completely immoral quest for the pursuit of self interest through rules of business and war.

I think a lot of what is being suggested is an important rhetorical ceremony for bolstering and justifying the stature of someone called a &quot;proprietor&quot; whose private concerns shall be their purpose in life and which will be the measure of their social standing - the legislative councils of colonial parliaments around the world typically started off as upper houses full of the most wealthy owners of swiped land and functioned quite openly as such until this outcome of the logic of Self Government began to make things look too obviously stacked in favour of those who were quite honestly &quot;serving themselves&quot;. 

I would like to see how easy it is to keep the Responsible Self Government discussion going as an intellectual ideal in the pursuit of &quot;liberty&quot; when the problem of Education is considered. I happen to think this is where the State brings important benefits. How does a society hope to achieve freedoms if everyone has to educate themselves and educate those they are immediately responsible for?  I&#039;m intrigued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was looking for a discussion of Responsible Self Government and found this very much in keeping with what I had previously understood. It was a common colonial theme in the New World and the Antipodes which helped people trample over all manner of excellent social traditions as people pushed out of Europe into spaces to acquire no matter how scandalously. I think the Opium Wars were a fine example of this same logic, completely immoral quest for the pursuit of self interest through rules of business and war.</p>
<p>I think a lot of what is being suggested is an important rhetorical ceremony for bolstering and justifying the stature of someone called a &#8220;proprietor&#8221; whose private concerns shall be their purpose in life and which will be the measure of their social standing &#8211; the legislative councils of colonial parliaments around the world typically started off as upper houses full of the most wealthy owners of swiped land and functioned quite openly as such until this outcome of the logic of Self Government began to make things look too obviously stacked in favour of those who were quite honestly &#8220;serving themselves&#8221;. </p>
<p>I would like to see how easy it is to keep the Responsible Self Government discussion going as an intellectual ideal in the pursuit of &#8220;liberty&#8221; when the problem of Education is considered. I happen to think this is where the State brings important benefits. How does a society hope to achieve freedoms if everyone has to educate themselves and educate those they are immediately responsible for?  I&#8217;m intrigued.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/self-government-2/comment-page-1/#comment-40010</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2011 18:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/uncategorized/self-government-2/#comment-40010</guid>
		<description>Spoken like a true libertarian, Mr. Rose.  This is a fine article.  In your commentary, you seem to advocate for a pure libertarian viewpoint.  As a tea party member, I am a strong advocate for essential liberty and personal responsibility.  As William Pitt, the former British prime minister said:  &quot;Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom; it is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.&quot;  Unfortunately, thanks to the sense of entitlement that has been fostered in our society, many want to enjoy the fruits of freedom to do what they want without the inconvenience of suffering the consequences of their choices when the outcome of those choices are not favorable; and they expect the rest of us to pick up the tab.  Also, we must have an essential framework for civil society to function.  As James Madison said in Federalist 51:  &quot;But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?  If men were angels, no government would be necessary.  If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.  In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.&quot;  It is a quandry, no doubt.  But each individuals&#039; rights end where yours&#039; start, so there must be a mechanism for protecting your rights when someone does not share the respect of rights and seeks to impose their will on you.  That is the key balance we seek, to respect the rights of the individual; but what do you do with those who do not share your reverence for liberty and your personal choice to be responsible with that liberty?  Your line of debate also ignores the reality of natural law (the law of gravity, etc.).  Thomas Jefferson said:  &quot;A free people (claim) their rights as derived from the laws(!) of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.&quot;  The debate will continue, no doubt, for as Kathleen Norris noted:  &quot;In any free society, the conflict between social conformity and individual liberty is permanent, unresolvable, and necessary.&quot;  Thank God (and a service member) that we live in a civil society where we have the freedom to hold that exchange of ideas, and foster life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, within the framework of our Constitution!  As a retired service member who has travelled the world, I can assure you that there are many places and peoples who do not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spoken like a true libertarian, Mr. Rose.  This is a fine article.  In your commentary, you seem to advocate for a pure libertarian viewpoint.  As a tea party member, I am a strong advocate for essential liberty and personal responsibility.  As William Pitt, the former British prime minister said:  &#8220;Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom; it is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.&#8221;  Unfortunately, thanks to the sense of entitlement that has been fostered in our society, many want to enjoy the fruits of freedom to do what they want without the inconvenience of suffering the consequences of their choices when the outcome of those choices are not favorable; and they expect the rest of us to pick up the tab.  Also, we must have an essential framework for civil society to function.  As James Madison said in Federalist 51:  &#8220;But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?  If men were angels, no government would be necessary.  If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.  In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.&#8221;  It is a quandry, no doubt.  But each individuals&#8217; rights end where yours&#8217; start, so there must be a mechanism for protecting your rights when someone does not share the respect of rights and seeks to impose their will on you.  That is the key balance we seek, to respect the rights of the individual; but what do you do with those who do not share your reverence for liberty and your personal choice to be responsible with that liberty?  Your line of debate also ignores the reality of natural law (the law of gravity, etc.).  Thomas Jefferson said:  &#8220;A free people (claim) their rights as derived from the laws(!) of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.&#8221;  The debate will continue, no doubt, for as Kathleen Norris noted:  &#8220;In any free society, the conflict between social conformity and individual liberty is permanent, unresolvable, and necessary.&#8221;  Thank God (and a service member) that we live in a civil society where we have the freedom to hold that exchange of ideas, and foster life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, within the framework of our Constitution!  As a retired service member who has travelled the world, I can assure you that there are many places and peoples who do not.</p>
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		<title>By: Larken Rose</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/self-government-2/comment-page-1/#comment-40005</link>
		<dc:creator>Larken Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2011 16:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/uncategorized/self-government-2/#comment-40005</guid>
		<description>A fine article, right up to the point where it says &quot;no reasonable person believes that society can exist without laws protecting each of us...&quot; What is this &quot;law&quot; thing, and why do you believe it to be so essential? I&#039;m all in favor of the use of defensive force, and the use of open, honest threats, such as, &quot;If you get caught committing murder, we will kill you.&quot; But why call that &quot;law&quot;? Once you glorify a mere threat by labeling it &quot;law,&quot; you are defeating self-&quot;government,&quot; by creating (or imagining) a superhuman entity to protect us all. Once you pretend that &quot;law&quot; is something OTHER than mere mortals making threats (which the term itself implies), you are imagining a ruling class into existence--i.e., whoever claims the right to enforce such &quot;laws.&quot; Those who imagine themselves to be &quot;law enforcers&quot; will commit violence while accepting no responsibility for doing so, because they will imagine themselves to be the agents of the mythical, superhuman thing called &quot;law.&quot; Yes, having a system of mutual defense is important, but the MOMENT it is imagined to have rights that any other individual doesn&#039;t--the moment it&#039;s decrees are called &quot;laws,&quot; and the moment disobedience to it is deemed &quot;crime&quot;--then self-&quot;government&quot; is out the window, and you have a ruling class again. In the situation where force is inherently justified (i.e., when it is defensive), there is no need and no reason to call it &quot;law.&quot; And there is a big reason NOT to call it &quot;law,&quot; because it implies that whether something is right (or &quot;lawful&quot;) is up to a &quot;law-giver&quot; to decide, instead of up to each individual to figure out for himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fine article, right up to the point where it says &#8220;no reasonable person believes that society can exist without laws protecting each of us&#8230;&#8221; What is this &#8220;law&#8221; thing, and why do you believe it to be so essential? I&#8217;m all in favor of the use of defensive force, and the use of open, honest threats, such as, &#8220;If you get caught committing murder, we will kill you.&#8221; But why call that &#8220;law&#8221;? Once you glorify a mere threat by labeling it &#8220;law,&#8221; you are defeating self-&#8221;government,&#8221; by creating (or imagining) a superhuman entity to protect us all. Once you pretend that &#8220;law&#8221; is something OTHER than mere mortals making threats (which the term itself implies), you are imagining a ruling class into existence&#8211;i.e., whoever claims the right to enforce such &#8220;laws.&#8221; Those who imagine themselves to be &#8220;law enforcers&#8221; will commit violence while accepting no responsibility for doing so, because they will imagine themselves to be the agents of the mythical, superhuman thing called &#8220;law.&#8221; Yes, having a system of mutual defense is important, but the MOMENT it is imagined to have rights that any other individual doesn&#8217;t&#8211;the moment it&#8217;s decrees are called &#8220;laws,&#8221; and the moment disobedience to it is deemed &#8220;crime&#8221;&#8211;then self-&#8221;government&#8221; is out the window, and you have a ruling class again. In the situation where force is inherently justified (i.e., when it is defensive), there is no need and no reason to call it &#8220;law.&#8221; And there is a big reason NOT to call it &#8220;law,&#8221; because it implies that whether something is right (or &#8220;lawful&#8221;) is up to a &#8220;law-giver&#8221; to decide, instead of up to each individual to figure out for himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Andersen</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/self-government-2/comment-page-1/#comment-32632</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Andersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 23:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/uncategorized/self-government-2/#comment-32632</guid>
		<description>This was undoubtedly helpful! Thank you so much for sharing your beliefs concerning the responsibility of man. May God bless you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was undoubtedly helpful! Thank you so much for sharing your beliefs concerning the responsibility of man. May God bless you.</p>
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