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	<title>Comments on: Child Labor and the British Industrial Revolution</title>
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	<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/</link>
	<description>Ideas on Liberty</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 04:40:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18951</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Carson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The distinction between free labor child workers and child workers remanded by the parish poor law authorities was an important one.  Too much apologetic for the conditions of the Industrial Revolution doesn&#039;t even acknowledge that the latter existed.  The relationship between the poor law authorities and factory employers was essentially that of a slave auction.  You do a great service in drawing attention to the phenomenon.

I would argue, though, that the conditions under which &quot;free&quot; labor children &quot;chose&quot; factory labor reflected pressures similar in kind (if more indirect and in lesser degree) to those faced by those subject to the poor laws.  The important question is, why the parents &quot;chose&quot; to send their children to the factories, why they needed the extra income, and why they found the factory alternative attractive.  The answer lies, I think, in several centuries of prior history:  the enclosure of the open fields, the nullification of copyhold and other traditional land tenure rights, and Parliamentary Enclosure of commons.  You can throw in, for good measure, the restrictions on economic freedom entailed in the Combination Laws (enforcement of the Combination Laws was completely ungoverned by common law standards of due process) and various police state provisions in force from ca. 1790 to 1820.  The entire working class of Britain, as described by the Hammonds, amounted to a population under military occupation.

I agree that this is not a judgement on free markets, because (as Sheldon points out) no free market existed in this period.  It is, however, very much a judgment on the actual industrial capitalists of the time, who benefited in collusion with poor law authorities exactly the same way that southern planters benefited in collusion with slavers.

But all these things also give the lie to what Lord Curzon says:  that this is somehow an indictment of &quot;naked free-market capitalism.&quot;  Capitalism, as an actual historical system, has at best allowed markets to operate within the interstices of a structure of privilege dominated by landed elites and state-subsidized and -protected capital, to the extent that the latter find markets convenient.  I think analysts like Immanuel Wallerstein are correct in emphasizing the continuities of historic capitalism with feudalism, and the extent to which a portion of the feudal ruling classes negotiated the transition from one system to another (reinventing themselves first as mercantilists and landed oligarchs and then as finance capitalists).  

The goal of free market libertarians, as described by thinkers like Thomas Hodgskin and the American individualist anarchists, should be to eliminate the remaining feudal framework of privilege, artificial property rights, and artificial scarcity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The distinction between free labor child workers and child workers remanded by the parish poor law authorities was an important one.  Too much apologetic for the conditions of the Industrial Revolution doesn&#8217;t even acknowledge that the latter existed.  The relationship between the poor law authorities and factory employers was essentially that of a slave auction.  You do a great service in drawing attention to the phenomenon.</p>
<p>I would argue, though, that the conditions under which &#8220;free&#8221; labor children &#8220;chose&#8221; factory labor reflected pressures similar in kind (if more indirect and in lesser degree) to those faced by those subject to the poor laws.  The important question is, why the parents &#8220;chose&#8221; to send their children to the factories, why they needed the extra income, and why they found the factory alternative attractive.  The answer lies, I think, in several centuries of prior history:  the enclosure of the open fields, the nullification of copyhold and other traditional land tenure rights, and Parliamentary Enclosure of commons.  You can throw in, for good measure, the restrictions on economic freedom entailed in the Combination Laws (enforcement of the Combination Laws was completely ungoverned by common law standards of due process) and various police state provisions in force from ca. 1790 to 1820.  The entire working class of Britain, as described by the Hammonds, amounted to a population under military occupation.</p>
<p>I agree that this is not a judgement on free markets, because (as Sheldon points out) no free market existed in this period.  It is, however, very much a judgment on the actual industrial capitalists of the time, who benefited in collusion with poor law authorities exactly the same way that southern planters benefited in collusion with slavers.</p>
<p>But all these things also give the lie to what Lord Curzon says:  that this is somehow an indictment of &#8220;naked free-market capitalism.&#8221;  Capitalism, as an actual historical system, has at best allowed markets to operate within the interstices of a structure of privilege dominated by landed elites and state-subsidized and -protected capital, to the extent that the latter find markets convenient.  I think analysts like Immanuel Wallerstein are correct in emphasizing the continuities of historic capitalism with feudalism, and the extent to which a portion of the feudal ruling classes negotiated the transition from one system to another (reinventing themselves first as mercantilists and landed oligarchs and then as finance capitalists).  </p>
<p>The goal of free market libertarians, as described by thinkers like Thomas Hodgskin and the American individualist anarchists, should be to eliminate the remaining feudal framework of privilege, artificial property rights, and artificial scarcity.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheldon Richman</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18949</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheldon Richman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=12665#comment-18949</guid>
		<description>Lord Curzon writes, &quot;With no schools and no welfare system and a state that colluded with the owners to drive down wages and criminalise Trade Unionism, conditions in Britain under naked free-market capitalism were dire.&quot;

This sentence contains a contradiction. If the state colluded with owners to drive down wages and criminalize unions (which I have no trouble believing), then there was &lt;em&gt;no&lt;/em&gt; free-market or liberalism, which precludes the evils he claims existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lord Curzon writes, &#8220;With no schools and no welfare system and a state that colluded with the owners to drive down wages and criminalise Trade Unionism, conditions in Britain under naked free-market capitalism were dire.&#8221;</p>
<p>This sentence contains a contradiction. If the state colluded with owners to drive down wages and criminalize unions (which I have no trouble believing), then there was <em>no</em> free-market or liberalism, which precludes the evils he claims existed.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Curzon</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18927</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=12665#comment-18927</guid>
		<description>More fiction from the free-market book of fairy tales that this lavishly -funded front for the American Manufacturers Association has been peddling since the 1930s.

The selectivity and bias of this pseudo-scholarship is breathtaking - but sadly all too typical of the defenders of a very peculiar and almost exclusively American definition of &quot;Freedom&quot;.

With no schools and no welfare system and a state that colluded with the owners to drive down wages and criminalise Trade Unionism, conditions in Britain  under naked free-market capitalism were dire. 

Only when the left-wing reformers inside and outside Parliament and increased labour agitation and the fear of revolution forced through laws to provide some modest protection to workers did conditions begin to change  

This kind of propaganda is not only simple minded, it is a contemptible affront to generations of  genuine social and economic historians who have tried to tell the truth about the lives our forefathers had to endure. 

Such shabby nonsense illustrates just how rotten is the state of social, economic and historical scholarship in the USA, and I too will twitter and facebook it to make that very point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More fiction from the free-market book of fairy tales that this lavishly -funded front for the American Manufacturers Association has been peddling since the 1930s.</p>
<p>The selectivity and bias of this pseudo-scholarship is breathtaking &#8211; but sadly all too typical of the defenders of a very peculiar and almost exclusively American definition of &#8220;Freedom&#8221;.</p>
<p>With no schools and no welfare system and a state that colluded with the owners to drive down wages and criminalise Trade Unionism, conditions in Britain  under naked free-market capitalism were dire. </p>
<p>Only when the left-wing reformers inside and outside Parliament and increased labour agitation and the fear of revolution forced through laws to provide some modest protection to workers did conditions begin to change  </p>
<p>This kind of propaganda is not only simple minded, it is a contemptible affront to generations of  genuine social and economic historians who have tried to tell the truth about the lives our forefathers had to endure. </p>
<p>Such shabby nonsense illustrates just how rotten is the state of social, economic and historical scholarship in the USA, and I too will twitter and facebook it to make that very point.</p>
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		<title>By: gene</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18881</link>
		<dc:creator>gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=12665#comment-18881</guid>
		<description>oh, one small point, take their land first, no sense leaving options!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh, one small point, take their land first, no sense leaving options!</p>
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		<title>By: William L. Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18863</link>
		<dc:creator>William L. Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=12665#comment-18863</guid>
		<description>This was the choice that children had in that time: either work and be able to make a living, or die slow deaths of starvation. Like it or not, those were the conditions of that time.

Carl seems to think that the choice was between children working in the factories, or children staying and home and enjoying a nice, happy, middle-class life. That is the false choice that critics of capitalism like to present, but it is not true. Not that critics of capitalism ever have been honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was the choice that children had in that time: either work and be able to make a living, or die slow deaths of starvation. Like it or not, those were the conditions of that time.</p>
<p>Carl seems to think that the choice was between children working in the factories, or children staying and home and enjoying a nice, happy, middle-class life. That is the false choice that critics of capitalism like to present, but it is not true. Not that critics of capitalism ever have been honest.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18859</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 16:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=12665#comment-18859</guid>
		<description>Yes, working children to death is good for the kids. Builds character. Otherwise they&#039;d just starve to death. An ignoble end, given the value they can produce for the capable men who derive their capital within a system of pristine fairness based upon unquestionable merit. For that system to work, of course, you need a well-armed state to keep the urchins in line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, working children to death is good for the kids. Builds character. Otherwise they&#8217;d just starve to death. An ignoble end, given the value they can produce for the capable men who derive their capital within a system of pristine fairness based upon unquestionable merit. For that system to work, of course, you need a well-armed state to keep the urchins in line.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Farrell</title>
		<link>http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ideas-and-consequences/child-labor-and-the-british-industrial-revolution-2/comment-page-1/#comment-18431</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 05:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefreemanonline.org/?p=12665#comment-18431</guid>
		<description>Lawrence:

Great piece; quite interesting.

Posted link at Facebook with a summary lead. And will twitter.

Best,

Steve Farrell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawrence:</p>
<p>Great piece; quite interesting.</p>
<p>Posted link at Facebook with a summary lead. And will twitter.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Steve Farrell</p>
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